Commenters lash back at GamePro's Best RPG List
Nov. 6
GamePro has posted their list of The 26 Best RPGs for all of you to peruse, and there is a bit of uproar in the comments over two points - The first is that people are taking issue with Final Fantasy VII grabbing the Uber RPG crown, and the second is that people are claiming that The Legend of Zelda series doesn't count as an RPG. Let us take a moment to address these complaints after the jump.
Regarding Final Fantasy VII, no one can argue its impact on the gaming world. This game single handedly brought the stat-centric Japanese style RPG up from a niche genre to a main stay arena in the console wars. But was this game good enough to gain the title of The Best RPG Ever? That really comes down to your personal experience with the title. Many who have played the game through its 40+ hours of main storyline have been emotionally touched by the story told, which goes a long way towards arguing the game's relevance. But that leaves the appreciation of the title, and therefore its ranking on a list such as this, as a highly subjective thing.
Personally, I would have placed a different title in the top spot, specifically the other game we need to discuss: The Legend of Zelda.
To clarify, the Legend of Zelda series is absolutely an RPG, though it is a member of the sub-genre "Action RPG". Not just a member, but in the case of the original Zelda title, the founder of the sub-genre. In the past, when we have debated what makes an RPG an RPG, there is one factor that is fairly well agreed upon as being key, and that is Character Progression. Your character must advance in some way through the game, be it by stats or new skills and abilities. In a Zelda game, your character advances via items, each one adding another ability to Link's ever growing array. Also, you gain in power by gathering Heart Containers from each boss or from exploring the world. Zelda 2: The Adventures of Link even went so far as to add experience points and sword/life/magic stats, only to remove them in the third installment.
The point here is, not all RPG games are about visible stats - Role Playing is not defined by number crunching. Personally speaking, I think more RPGs should hide their stats behind the scenes in order to deliver on the Role Playing experience instead of the Roll Playing experience, and we are seeing a trend towards this with games like Fable 2. What it comes down to is sometimes an RPG is more about adventure then an Adventure game is, and that is an important point to remember as our virtual worlds become more elaborately detailed.
What are your opinions on the list that GamePro has presented?
Crimson N Clover (31)
Dimsum Queen (5)
Freckled Moon (3)
Hindsight (4)
Mandifesto (127)
Comments
I know that FFVII brought RPGs into the mainstream, and I liked it, but as a guy who played the series prior to FFVII, I in now way see it as even the best in the series let alone the best RPG off all time. Most influential RPG of all time would be more like it.
I guess all the newer fans of FF that came on after FFVII kinda turned me off to the game by how much they've overhyped it. Never mind that it's story was filled with holes, and still has me scratching my head on some parts of it to this day.
At first I too was blown away by FFVII, because of the prerendered backgrounds, and FMVs which I had never experienced before because I didn't own my PS1 prior to FFVII. My sole purpose for buying a PS1 was because of FFVII, because I was a huge FF fan prior to VII's release. Looking back beyond all the flash, however, I see a good, but extremely overrated game.
The reason that so many people hold it in such high regard is probably because it was their first RPG.
Another thing regarding the list, it was nice to see Grandia getting some love, but what about Suikoden, Lunar, Breath of Fire, and etc?
Yeah, FFVII holds a special place in my heart, but it getting on there at #1 is clearly a purely symbolic thing. In terms of actual game design, coherent storyline, depth, etc, it can't hold up, and I think the text of the reviews basically admits to this.
It must've been hard narrowing down your list to 26 games.
I was able to weigh in on a few of those choices, and I did my best to make sure some of the older titles were represented, but to be honest I did miss a few that should have been on there, Breath of Fire and Lunar included. Suikoden did represent with Suikoden III which placed at #15, so at least one part of the series made the list.
As a side note, I'm very proud of the text blurbs for World of Warcraft, Baldur's Gate 2, and The Ultima Series, as I got to write those myself. ^_^
I didn't think it was too bad but I would have made that list way shorter. There were way too many games on the list that weren't RPGs by any reasonable definition of the term, but instead popular titles that incorporated some early RPG-like mechanics. Modern games using the same mechanics would never really be considered RPGs by most people. It gave the impression that the list was just being padded out with anything sort of RPG-like to make it longer.
It probably also came across as pandering to some fans, which would explain the backlash at the inclusion of perennial hardcore hate-targets like FFVII* and perennial "is it an RPG or isn't it?" franchise the Legend of Zelda**. There are as many opinions about whether or not Zelda is an RPG as there are people who've played the games.
* There's been an explosion of interest in RPG gameplay balance in the past few years, probably due to some clever titles like FFXII hitting that made people really think about it for the first time. A lot of the current ire directed at FFVII is simply because the gameplay isn't good now and wasn't good then, and that seems more valuable to the modern RPG fan than story or graphics.
** I think the real problem with Zelda is that your view of it is going to be dictated by which games were your favorites. If you really dug on Zelda or Zelda III, it probably is an RPG to you. If you are a big fan of Zelda II or Ocarina or Time... or, really, any of the modern ones... you'll probably argue it's an action game with some RPG-like progression mechanics. Some people use the term "adventure" for that entire genre, including stuff like Kingdom Hearts or Ys that I would be inclined to consider an action RPG myself.
I noticed Suikoden afterward. I somehow overlooked it before, so that's one less complaint.
Of course I know it's your guy's opinions, and you'll never be able to please everyone.
You could have went to 100, and there would still be people complaining that you overlooked something.
Well, Zelda always used to be classified as an action-adventure-RPG, but lately, many adventure games are blending the line between an adventure game, and an action-adventure-RPG, so I can see how it's hard to classify Zelda as an RPG nowadays.
Of course, it seems that every game seems to be taking RPG elements as of late.
As far as Deus Ex is concerned, I don't really consider it an RPG. I consider it a FPS with RPG elements, but overall I'd classify it as a FPS. Maybe a First person adventure game.
Me, I can't believe Final Fantasy VI isn't there, nor a Breath of Fire...
... and seriously, Suikoden -3-? I'd have understood 2, or 5, but 3? The one that broke the 108 stars of destiny thing? Blar :P
I agree with mazinja regarding final fantasy vi. I mean, come on! When you went around the world rounding up people after THE BAD GUY WINS(Emphasis, this is a first), All of the storyline characters get some form of backstory to them. The optional characters don't get developed as much(except shadow), but these back stories really should have helped FFVI make the list.
As for FFVII, it wasn't my first Final Fantasy, so I can't really say. But I can say that FFX should have been on the list if XII made it. I mean, come on! The debut of FF voicing?
And does no one hold any regard for the Star Ocean series?
Zelda games are absolutely not RPGs. Do they have certain aspects found in RPGs? Of course. But at its core, Zelda is not an RPG. If gaining "stats or new skills and abilities" is all it takes to make a game an RPG, then a great majority of games are RPGs. The Metroid series. Most Mario platformers. If gaining items in Zelda makes it an RPG, then getting new guns in a game must make it an RPG as well. Halo is an FPS-RPG by that standard. You can get a multitude of new skills and weapons in No More Heroes. Is it, then, and action-RPG? Not at all. Almost all games that focus on a character or set of characters have Character Progression. While that is a major part of an RPG, a game that has those mechanics cannot just be considered some sort of RPG.
Zelda has character progression, but it's not the central, most important part of the game, as it would have to be for the games to be true RPGs. Zelda's core gameplay is not Link getting stronger through combat (or some other activity), but adventuring. Link never actually becomes more powerful, though he is helped by items. The games are not about Link's improvement, but about his travels. It is very possible to defeat most final Zelda bosses with three hearts and a sword, just as Link started in the game. The games aren't focused on getting strong enough to finish the game; just getting to the end.
While this description of an Adventure game may at first seem as vague as your explanation of why it's an RPG, it's made clear that Zelda is Adventure (or action-adventure) by the fact that it doesn't fit squarely in another genre, even action-RPG. It's an adventure game with puzzle, RPG, platforming, stealth, shooting, and even racing elements. But it's base genre is absolutely not 'role-playing game'.
I would have to admit that Feanaro's comment convinced me with his opinions about the meaning of an "RPG" and thus omitting the Zelda series from the genre makes some sense.
FF VII does not surprise me. I was hoping for something different. Honestly, I can't comment on the placing of FF VII. I've just grown apathetic to it.
As for FF XII, I would've put just about any FF in it's place, easily. For one, FF X would make a better swap, simply because it is regarded as the better game among its PS2 brethren.
You are deluded if you think Zelda is an RPG. One game in the series may have been, but those two that you put in that list certainly are not.
You say a game counts as an RPG when a hero progresses through the game. I wonder how many games out there have that concept? Then you say that Zelda counts because it includes items to progress further. I wonder where I've heard that before...
You say that increasing your max health reinforces the fact that Zelda is an RPG. You can increase your health with similar power ups in a ton of games, including God of War, Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, etc. Increasing your health isn't enough to enforce the argument.
If not for that Zelda blunder, this feature would not have been the joke that it is (as much anyway).
Hey, where's FFVIII? Besides that, where's Valkyrie Profile on that Gamepro list? I think RPGs by their nature is a highly controversial topic. When you spend more than 40 hours with a character, there is a bond between you and your character. Subjecting RPGs to a TOP ## list is frankly asking for a beating and hate-mail galore.
On a more related to your article note, I totally agree that FFVII should have been #1 for most influential RPG, not the top best. In fact, let's just get rid of that word, "BEST." What's great to one does not apply to others. =)
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